THE LAS VEGAS I REMEMBER INTERVIEW WITH ROBERT MAHEU Taken At KNPR Studios 5151 Boulder Highway Las Vegas, Nevada TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 2 MR. ANDERSON: All right. It is January 19th, Martin Luther King, Junior's birthday. I'm Tim Anderson of the studios of KNPR. And, sir, if you'll introduce yourself, please. MR. MAHEU: My name is Bob Maheu of Robert A. Maheu and Associates, a native of Las Vegas. MR. ANDERSON: And, Mr. Maheu, if you would give us a bit of a summary about your life and work before your association with Howard Hughes. MR. MAHEU: Well, I was a student at Georgetown law school and had an opportunity, in 1940, to become an FBI agent. I left the FBI in 1947 and went back into government in Washington, D.C., in the early '50s with the Small Business Administration; left government in 1954 and started Robert A. Maheu and Associates, which company I still own. MR. ANDERSON: And it was during the early years of this company that you became associated with Howard Hughes. If you could, tell us how that first happened. MR. MAHEU: It was the first year, as a matter of fact, of the formation of my company. I received a phone call from a law firm in Washington, D.C., telling me that they had an assignment for a client that they, at the time, could not identify and that I had been recommended to the firm by my old classmate from Holy Cross College, Edward Bennett Williams, who had become a famous attorney in Washington, D.C. And I TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 3 took on the assignment and produced to their satisfaction, sent them a very small bill, and a few months later received another phone call, at which time they identified their client as Howard Hughes. MR. ANDERSON: How did you feel about working for a guy as accomplished and famous as Howard Hughes? What did you know about him? MR. MAHEU: Well, I knew quite a bit about him. As a matter of fact, when I retired from the FBI in 1947, I had followed the so-called Brewster hearings; that's when Senator Brewster, who was favoring Pan American Airlines, was trying to commit all kinds of moves that would embarrass Howard Hughes. And I followed the hearings very closely because Brewster was a senator from Maine, and I was in the state of Maine at the time. And I created within myself quite a respect for this man who dared sit there before these congressional committees and, among other things, remind Senator Brewster that he, Brewster, worked for Hughes, not the other way around. And I had always felt that those people in Washington did not have an exclusive on good judgment. It made me feel very good to see someone who finally had the guts to tell things the way they were. MR. ANDERSON: If you could maybe tell us about one of those early assignments with Howard Hughes, maybe it was the second one, that didn't go so well with Ava Gardner. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 4 MR. MAHEU: The second one went very, very badly. It seems that Mr. Hughes was interested in rumors that were abounding to the fact that Ava Gardner, in whom he was very much interested at the time, was at Lake Tahoe and seeing Frank Sinatra, and wanted a surveillance placed on Ava Gardner. I hired a private eye, former FBI agent in Reno, and gave him the assignment. And the first thing I knew, I began to get phone calls from the press. It seems that Mr. Sinatra and Ava had decided to take a boat ride. And rather than wait until they returned at the shore, the eager beaver chartered a boat of his own and started following them on Lake Tahoe. And by the time he landed, the media was there, and he announced that he had been hired by me. He did not identify Mr. Hughes, of course. And it made headlines, and I was sure that that would be the last assignment that I'd ever have from Mr. Hughes. Strangely enough, a few weeks passed and a request came for me to go to Los Angeles on a special assignment on behalf of Mr. Hughes. I went. I took on the assignment, and in that case it turned out that someone was trying to extort money from him. And I had previously, on the first assignment, explained to him that you must never, never pay blackmail money. Usually if you check the background of a blackmailer, by the time you're through, with enough information, you can swap files, and he's very happy to go TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 5 home and for you to keep your mouth shut. However, in this case, it turned out that we could not find anything on this particular individual. And it bothered Hughes immensely until I came up with a plan which I would not divulge to Hughes. But I told him that I was going to meet the extortionist in a room in New York City, and that I had a plan which I thought would work. He wanted $2,000. I met with him. I went through all the elements of blackmail and then finally said, "If we give you $2,000, you will not divulge." And it was a matter that was not that important. It would not have been to me, but to Hughes it was. And in any event, I counted out the $2,000, and he thanked me and started to leave the room. And I grabbed him by the wrist and sat him down and said, "Before you leave, I want you to hear some music." I opened up a drawer, played a tape of our conversation. He paled. He said, "What's this for?" I said, "It's because I've convinced Mr. Hughes that people like you should be out of circulation. I'm going to take this tape, bring it to the district attorney's office, and we're going to get you indicted if it's the last thing I do." "Wait a minute." He says, "Can you and I make a deal?" I said, "What do you mean?" TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 6 He said, "Well, why don't we split it?" I said, "No, that's not enough." He said, "Well, what will it take?" I said, "It will take $2,000." So he counted the money back and left and thanked me again. I gave him the tape. And before he left I said, "I want you to listen to more music." Opened up another drawer and had the whole conversation taped. At which time he said, "You can't do this to me." I said, "I can and there's one way that you can prove that you're really concerned about this," because he had manifested his concern. I said, "If you ever open up your mouth, both tapes go to the district attorney's office." When I called 7,000 romaine, Hughes was waiting there for me to give a report. I dictated a report to his aids and was told, "Stay right there, right where you are until he has read your report." The phone rang, and for the first time I heard Howard Hughes's voice. "Bob, how are you? That was fabulous." And he's laughing. And he said, "Now go through this whole scenario again." And he made me repeat it three times. And each time he laughed more. And he said, "This is absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much." And then I went back to my office in Washington, D.C., and about ten days later received a phone call where he TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 7 wanted me to go to the coast and now become involved in more serious things. MR. ANDERSON: And that was what year? MR. MAHEU: That would have been 1954. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. So it wasn't too much longer after that, I believe it was '57, when he wanted you to become his alter ego. MR. MAHEU: From '54 to '57, I made quite a few additional trips to Los Angeles. I became involved in a political campaign in which he was interested, and I began to handle more and more of his troubleshooting problems. And finally in 1957, he requested that I go to the Bahamas. He had been there about a week at the time. He had taken a Constellation from TWA and flown it there. And he had the top floor at one of the major hotels in Nassau. And when I arrived, by phone, he explained to me that he wanted me to assist him in buying the newspaper, a radio station, the airport, land. And as those conversations progressed, one day he told me that he had made up his mind that I would be his alter ego. He pointed out to me that he had decided never to make another public appearance, ever to appear before a congressional committee or a regulatory body, and that it was up to me to come up with a plan whereby when people spoke to me, they in fact were speaking to Howard Hughes. I thought that was very exciting. Not perhaps as TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 8 much as I should have, because at the time I had developed some very, very meaningful clients who paid me a lot more money, frankly, than Hughes was paying me. I had clients that were paying on an annual retainer, in those days fabulous annual retainers. But this was so challenging, the thought of becoming the alter ego of Howard Hughes was more than I could resist. And I agreed that I would take on the assignment. MR. ANDERSON: Why did Hughes require you to do this? Why did he refuse to make any more public appearances? MR. MAHEU: I believe it was a combination of things at that time in 1957. He was a very proud man. For instance, when he was playing golf in the old days, he'd have cameras follow him. They'd develop the film as soon as possible. He would go over all of his strokes to make sure that he could make the corrections that were needed. When he made movies, he was a perfectionist. He'd reshoot a scene that most producers or directors would allow to stay as is, but they weren't to his satisfaction, particularly during the Hell's Angel movie where they shot and reshot and spent innumerable amounts of money. But he didn't care, he wanted perfection. After his last and major plane crash, where he truly had a hearing problem that was very, very bad, he was too proud to wear a hearing aid. In those days they were not as concealable as they are today. And he just began to work his TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 9 way into a cocoon, which is very sad. And in retrospect, I sometimes ask myself if I had not been better off and he had been better off had I not accepted the assignment. Because I gave him the luxury of really going into his cocoon and avoiding making public appearances. MR. ANDERSON: At that time was he under heavy doses of narcotics for pain? MR. MAHEU: I was not aware of it. At that time, and many years later, I can show you memoranda that will go on for eight or nine pages where the first sentence is so clear and precise and then the whole body of it sticks so well. And then the last paragraph will tie everything in just absolutely perfectly without a grammatical error, without a punctuation error, written in his own hand. But I did know that he took sleeping pills when he became tired, that was what I was being told, and that he took uppers when he wanted to be up to see something special on TV. I was not aware of the extent of the drugs. MR. ANDERSON: What could you tell us about your relationship with the so-called -- and I know you don't care for this term -- but the so-called Mormon Mafia that surrounded Hughes, and who they were, and to what extent they had control of him? MR. MAHEU: Well, first of all, you're correct. I'm not a Mormon. I happen to be a Roman Catholic, but I have TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 10 great respect for the Mormon church and the members of the church. But they too have members that don't deserve to be Mormans as we in the Catholic church. After all, the good Lord chose 12 apostles, and one of them sold him for twelve pieces of silver, so even he couldn't choose twelve good ones. No, I don't like to refer to them as the Mormon Mafia because I think it has an implication that I personally resent. However, it just so happened that the leader of the group was a Mormon, and he surrounded himself with principally Mormons. Their assignment was to stay with Hughes, bathe him and take care of him, make sure he never saw anyone. And in reality, try to keep communications away between him and his executives. I early realized that their intention was to steal the empire from Mr. Hughes. This is not hearsay, they tried to get me to join both times, both times in the presence of another person. One of the other persons is still living here in Las Vegas. We were talking about it the other day. He and I still cannot believe that they had the audacity, not only to make this approach, but to cash the checks this man was giving them. And I would tell him about it and he'd laugh, and I would laugh. And he'd say, "So long as you and I are talking, Bob, and communicating, we'll take care of these bums. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 11 There's no way that they can do this." I very stupidly never cranked into my plan the day that he would be so sick that he and I could not talk to each other. And that is when they made their move. MR. ANDERSON: And that day did come on I believe it was a Thanksgiving. MR. MAHEU: Thanksgiving Eve 1970, that day did come. MR. ANDERSON: You got a call. MR. MAHEU: I got a call that he had left. And I truly believed that he left against his will in spite of all the protestations to the contrary. Jack Anderson has followed this scenario from its very beginning. He still refers to the night that Hughes was kidnapped. Here's a man whose doctor, the only doctor who was seeing him at the time, signed a statement after his disappearance from here that he, Dr. Harold Feikes, a very highly respected doctor here in Las Vegas, would not have allowed him to go from the Desert Inn Hotel to Sunrise Hospital unless it were a dire, dire emergency. And here on a cold Thanksgiving Eve, they take this man down from the ninth floor of the Desert Inn to a vehicle, to Dallas, and fly him to the Bahamas. MR. ANDERSON: To the best of your knowledge, what happened to Howard Hughes during that flight and shortly TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 12 thereafter? MR. MAHEU: Well, there've been so many things written about what happened. I mean, they now had broken the last window that he had to the world. I mean, it's a matter of record. And by the way, I want to make it very, very clear that any derogatory information or any statement that I make that's of a derogatory nature has nothing to do with the present administration of the Howard Hughes world. I want to make that very clear, because I think that it's an unfortunate thing that he had to die so that his empire could be saved. And I have nothing but high respect for Bill Lummis and John Goolsby and the work they've done. And as a matter of fact, there are documents that have been filed in court by the estate that verify everything that I'm telling you, including their attempts to get me to join and so forth. So that I have been not only vindicated in court, by virtue of my own lawsuit, I've been vindicated by the present administration. In any event, I'm very, very vocal about that. I don't want anything I say of a bad nature to linger on their doorsteps because they have done one hell of a job. And they are leaving this man one great legacy, which he deserves. MR. ANDERSON: So he takes that flight to the Bahamas, and what happens? TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 13 MR. MAHEU: He takes the flight to the Bahamas. And then the moves, I can't remember exactly, but from that point on, they have him. From that point on, they have him. And they can move him. And by that time, they did have him. He was dependent on drugs, there's no doubt about it. And they could move him from one location to another just by telling him that the drugs, for instance, had dried up, they had to go somewhere else. Imagine a man of the nature of Howard Hughes, as sick as he was at the time, to go to Guatemala. You know, you might be able to get better medical treatment, if you ever needed it, right here in the United States. And then they moved him back and forth. Finally they got him to Mexico. And Jack Anderson followed those moves. Jack Anderson, the syndicated columnist, followed these activities. As a matter of fact, Jack has made two documentaries for TV on this very issue, how they moved him, and how they treated him, and how they returned him to this country. And the autopsy revealed that this man, ironically, who created the biggest medical foundation in the history of man -- when Hughes Aircraft was sold to General Motors for $5.3 billion, at that moment the money went to the Howard Hughes Medical Foundation. It became the biggest medical foundation in the history of man. This man made this possible. It's ironical that he should be returned to the TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 14 United States a basket case with sores oozing from his forehead, a whole in his left shoulder, a hole. Holes where teeth should have been. Six broken hypodermic needles in his arm. Festered with bed sores. No wonder they wanted immediate cremation. And thank God that Bill Lummis was able to prevail and that they had an autopsy which revealed what I just finished telling you. MR. ANDERSON: Were any of those in charge of Hughes's care at that time prosecuted? MR. MAHEU: Some were prosecuted, and they managed to circumvent the -- and, you know, people have asked me, when I was on my book tour, people would ask me, "Are you saying that they killed him?" And my answer then, as is today, is that if sheer neglect qualifies as a weapon, the answer is yes. And I might add that I've said this so many times and not one of them has dared even challenge it or even notify me that I shouldn't say it again. MR. ANDERSON: Some of these men are still living? MR. MAHEU: Yes, yes. MR. ANDERSON: It's amazing. That's just simply amazing how a man of such tremendous ability -- MR. MAHEU: It's horrible. And you know, what's so sad about the whole thing, if you started writing a book about Benjamin Franklin and started with the things he did wrong, chances are you'd run out of paper before you could talk about TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 15 his accomplishments. And yet, you never hear about the things he did wrong, you only hear about his accomplishments. And it's so sad in the case of Hughes, there have been those who've written these nasty fallacious books, and the poor man is not here to defend himself. And being a public figure in the first place makes it so difficult to file libel cases, that people want to remember the long fingernails and the long hair. I mean, you know, I had a mother who was perhaps the smartest person I've ever known. I used to marvel at her being able to take the New York Times crossword puzzle and sit there as if she were writing a letter to someone. She'd finish it in times that are almost impossible to believe. In her later years, she started losing it. And I would much rather remember her sitting there with a smile on her face with a crossword puzzle than accusing her maid of stealing, for instance, which was not true. I mean, in the case of Hughes, people seem to want to forget about the accomplishments. And I'm talking about the accomplishments in communications. Everyone thinks of Hughes as a movie mogul, a woman chaser. They don't realize that when he flew around the world, when he set a record flying around the world, he was as proud of the fact that throughout that whole trip he was in constant communication. He was a communications buff. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 16 I mean, who soft landed the first vehicle on the moon? It was Hughes Aircraft. Imagine that many years ago we soft-landed a vehicle on the moon that sent messages back to earth upon command from earth, not once but twice. We marvel about our communications today in the world of space. Who set the first space vehicle synchronized to earth? The Early Bird, which was a Hughes Aircraft manufactured vehicle, we did that in the middle '60s when four-fifths of the world had been incapable of receiving instantaneous communications. You understand that better than I do at that time. But we don't talk about these accomplishments. We don't talk about the things, the helicopters, and the other accomplishments of this man. And I think it's time that we do. And as long as I live, I'll do my share in that world, I'll tell you. MR. ANDERSON: Good enough. Now, your position as Hughes's alter ego gave you a great deal of authority, and I'm talking, especially since this program is about Las Vegas, to make a lot of decisions that effected the life of a lot of people in Las Vegas, when talking about hotel acquisitions and things of that nature. Tell, then, if you could, a little bit about how that power conferred on you helped you shape Las Vegas the way Hughes wanted it. MR. MAHEU: Well, in the first place, when we came here in 1966 -- he arrived in Las Vegas strangely enough on TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 17 Thanksgiving Eve, 1966. He had no desire then of buying a hotel, but he had made up his mind that this was where he wanted to live. He wanted to buy a radio station. He wanted to buy a newspaper. He wanted to buy land. He wanted to buy the airport, and build a new huge supersonic airport, all of these plans he had. A long, long story. We had promised the owners at the Desert Inn that we'd keep their top floor, the best suites that they had, had just done over, for only ten days. And this was starting Thanksgiving Eve 1966. And in those days the action at that particular period, until New Year's Eve, was rather dull anyway. So they were not making that much of a concession. Lo and behold, the top floor is taken, then the second best floor, the eighth floor is loaded with staff, and now their secondary rooms for the high rollers. And they want us out of there. They manifested very clearly that by New Year's Eve they wanted, definitely, us out of there. Well, we prevailed and stayed, and they became very, very peeved at us, I mean very peeved at us, and threatened to throw Hughes out bodily in early March. MR. ANDERSON: Now, who is "they" you're talking about? MR. MAHEU: The owners. MR. ANDERSON: Moe Dalitz? MR. MAHEU: Moe Dalitz. And rightly so. I mean, TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 18 rightly so. And I used to tell Hughes, I'd say, "Howard, you know, they want these. These are the best suites they have, the best rooms they have. I mean, what do you want me to tell them?" He'd say, "Tell them to go to hell." I'd say, "Howard, that won't work. And I'd say to him, "But, Howard, we promised them we'd be here only ten days." He said, "I didn't make any promise." I said, "Howard, you told me to make a promise." "But you're the one who made it, not me." We'd play with words. Anyway it got to the point where I became convinced, I mean, thoroughly convinced that within 48 hours if we did not move out of there, that they would get their security people to put us out on the sidewalk. And I believe it. I believe it to this day. When that happened and he could detect that I was shaken up, I was concerned, he said, "What do you suggest we do?" I said, "If you want a place to sleep, you may have to buy a hotel." He said "Is it for sale?" I said, "I don't know." "Let's find out." So we bought the Desert Inn. He bought the Desert TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 19 Inn. He had never mentioned before being in the hotel business. He bought the Desert Inn because he needed a place to sleep. And as things progressed, particularly in the determination of whether he, Howard Hughes, the individual, or Hughes Tool, the entity, would buy the hotel, we had to have conferences with his tax attorneys in Houston and in Washington, D.C. And they determined that it would be better if Hughes Tool bought it because of tax reasons. In other words, buying the hotel turned out to be a salvation for some tax problems that existed as a consequence of the sale of TWA, which had been one of the biggest commercial sales in history at that time. Once he realized that, it didn't quite qualify to solve all of his problems, he called me. And he was laughing and he said, "Bob, you'll never believe this. I've solved my tax problem, but we need more hotels. How many more of these toys are available?" And that's when we started buying. Now bear in mind that this happened at a time when corporate entities could not buy gaming operations. In any event, it's a long way of answering your question. But the sheer arrival of Hughes and the attendant publicity, the publicity was absolutely phenomenal. I could not tell you. The minute the word got out that Hughes was in Las Vegas, and further that he had bought a property in Las Vegas, it was not unusual for us to receive five and six bags of mail daily. I TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 20 mean, everyone who had an inch of property to sell, everyone wanted him to make contributions. Every law firm wanted to be hired. Every accounting firm wanted to be hired. I mean, it was phenomenal. But we started buying properties. And we did not buy them helter-skelter. I mean, I had an opportunity of finding out certain things about those who were in trouble with the federales. And coincidentally, they were of an age, the ownership, that they wanted to get their estates in order, and here comes someone with money. And someone who's licensable. And so we started buying. In reality, over a period of several years, I negotiated with about 12, 13 entities, but we ended up buying seven. In order of acquisition, we bought the Sands, we bought the Castaways, we bought the Frontier, we bought the Silver Slipper, we bought the Landmark, and we bought Harold's Club in Reno. In the meantime, there were others in which negotiations took place but did not come to fruition. MR. ANDERSON: Now, the negotiations for the Desert Inn were quite protracted and a bit hostile. I guess you even threatened to quit, did you not, at that time? MR. MAHEU: Well, what happened is that after we had negotiated the price where he wanted it, he told me to go and make a handshake deal with Moe Dalitz in the presence of the other owners. Most of them were there, and I gave them a TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 21 handshake deal. The night before the actual closing was to take place, I was having dinner in the Monte Carlo room with my family, and their accountant came in and he was white. And he says, "The deal is off." And I said, "Why?" He said, "I just heard from Mr. Hughes's attorney they want to change the deal by $13,000." And I said, ""Well, I'll give you the 13." He said, "No. It has to come from Hughes or his attorney." His attorney had taken over. They were just not accustomed to doing business with people who changed their minds and who falter on a handshake deal. So they were all sitting at a table, one table. And I took the accountant by the hand, and I said, "Come with me." We went to the elevator. I took my key, turned it to the ninth floor, walked by the guard, went to the suite that was opposite from Hughes. And I'd spent a lot of time there. I'd write communications. I took a yellow pad, and I submitted my resignation and handed it to the accountant. And he said, "What in the hell are you doing?" I said, "I'm not going to be involved with anyone in Las Vegas or elsewhere who doesn't understand a handshake deal. It's that simple." I knocked on the other side and in the presence of the accountant handed it to the aid. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 22 And the aid says, "I can't give him this." I said, "Step aside. I'll go give it to him." Whereupon, I made sure he had walked into Hughes's bedroom and went back down. Now, we're sitting there, and by that time these guys are absolutely furious. They'd been furious at me for a long time at this point because they thought I was lying, that we were just using this as a diversion. They had found out that the rooms we had in Boston were still intact when we came here. They thought we were moving back to Boston, we were just delaying them. And they were furious. And I'll never forget one of them says, "What did you accomplish now?" I said, "I don't really know, but we'll find out." About ten minutes later, the phone rang for the accountant. It was the Hughes attorney. The accountant got a smile on his face, and he said, "The deal goes as structured." This may sound melodramatic, but I felt then, as I do now, that that had to be done. I mean, I don't care. It's not the amount of money involved. MR. ANDERSON: No, not at all. MR. MAHEU: I mean, if you're going to start a relationship here in Las Vegas with a lot of these old-timers -- and I have to tell you, I don't care what other TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 23 people say, I have never met a better group of people than the so called old-timers in Las Vegas. Some of them may have been in illegal crap games when they were 15 years old, but as a category of people, they give you their word, you can go to bed with it, and they'll stick by it. And for the bulk -- I'm sure you've seen it -- for the bulk of them, good living men, good families. They care about their families. They care about the community. They've made some great, great contributions to this city. MR. ANDERSON: I've heard everybody say that same thing about them. Everybody says the same thing, that they were great guys, great contributors to the community. MR. MAHEU: That's right. MR. ANDERSON: And that they may have done other things in other cities, but when they got here -- MR. MAHEU: Anyway, Las Vegas is fortunate to have had them, and Las Vegas is very fortunate to have had Hughes because Hughes arrived at the right time. It's taking me a long time again -- MR. ANDERSON: That's okay. MR. MAHEU: -- to answer what you asked originally. But things were depressed when Hughes arrived, there's no doubt about it. Things were depressed. And apartments had been overbuilt, the commercial facilities had been overbuilt, and it needed a shot in the arm. The arrival TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 24 of Hughes -- and people seem to forget the attendant publicity, it was phenomenal all over the world. And then came the legislation that enabled corporate entities to come along. We already had some great, great, knowledgeable and wonderful people in this business. I mean, you know, we can't give all of the credit to Hughes and to us for what we did. I mean, you had the Gaughans, the Houssels. I mean, you had the Fertittas. I mean, you had some great people here. And came the evolution of a new generation, vis-a-vis -- well, Kirk was there when we came, but then you had the Steve Wynns. We've been very fortunate here in this city. MR. ANDERSON: But Hughes really began that trend. MR. MAHEU: I like to believe that. I truly like to believe that it was at a point where a switch had to be turned. And I like to believe that it was he who turned the switch. Otherwise, God knows where Las Vegas would be here today. MR. ANDERSON: I hear from a lot of people who came to Las Vegas in the '30s and '40s and really enjoyed Las Vegas in the '50s and early '60s, and they say that Hughes's influence, although it provided Las Vegas with a shot in the arm, that after that time that the Strip was not a place of class anymore, that people dressed any which way, that it had lost its classiness. And that the corporate philosophy that TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 25 was later instituted -- and I'm not sure that Hughes had anything to do with this -- with every department having to carry its own weight, and not just gaming being the big draw, that Las Vegas is not what it used to be. And a lot of people say that, well, it all started with Howard Hughes. MR. MAHEU: Unfortunately, there's merit to that argument. But there's a price tag to growth too, and with growth comes more control. And we brought, for instance, more control in the cage. I called the accountants who had been handling the Hughes account for years out of Houston to set up the initial -- it was Haskins and Sells then; it's now DeLoitte Touche. They were the ones who set up accountabilities completely divorced from the operation. I gave them authority to hold surprise audits without ever telling me. I have never had a representative in a cage because I wanted complete delineation between the management and the accountability of the funds. And as I say, with growth comes a quality control, if you want, accountability, if you want, that does not allow the luxury of the old. And that's unfortunate, but it's inevitable. MR. ANDERSON: It's a by-product. MR. MAHEU: It's a by-product. It's like, for instance, someone asked me recently, one of the magazines, I had an interview, whether I resent the fact that it takes so much longer to go from point A to point B. I don't resent it TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 26 because I look at it as a price of growth. I wish I had seen growth during my formative years. My daddy had a little grocery store in a very poor area in a small town in Maine that's frozen up right now, by the way, in a little textile area. When the textile industry moved south, we would have paid anything for the price tag of growth. I remember my mom starting to cry in the fall, early fall or late spring, because friends of hers -- now, we did not have that problem -- because friends of hers had to choose the warmest house so that two or three families could move in and be able to live through the winter where the price of oil had gone up. And we went through that year after year. And you know, we thought that only shipyards used cranes. You see more cranes today at the Venetian project than the state of Maine has seen in ten years. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, they call it the state bird. MR. MAHEU: Exactly. MR. ANDERSON: One more item concerning the Desert Inn sale. Moe Dalitz originally, and the others, were not interested in selling. Jimmy Hoffa, I guess, had some input in the final decision, and even to Moe Dalitz's protestations. Why did Jimmy Hoffa get involved in the sale? MR. MAHEU: Jimmy Hoffa did not get involved in the sale. The Teamsters had the paper, they had the loan on the DI. So Jimmy Hoffa would have been very, very happy to TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 27 substitute Moe and his partners with Hughes, to have Hughes on the paper, and was. I mean, the Teamsters were substituting Moe and his partners with Hughes, to have Hughes on the paper, and was. I mean, the Teamsters were very happy when we took over. What Moe was selling was not the Desert Inn fee. In other words, all we bought was the operating company. The fee simple, the golf course, the land, all was owned by Helmsley of New York. MR. ANDERSON: Harry? MR. MAHEU: Harry Helmsley. And at one point I had a deal to buy all of it with Helmsley for 13 million and could not get a decision from Hughes. We would have been well advised to buy it, but we didn't. It was Kirk who finally bought it from Helmsley. MR. ANDERSON: Howard Hughes, like all wealthy men, liked to have influence on political power in order to have stability when it comes to their money and their investments in businesses. Howard Hughes used his political power here in Nevada with Bob Laxalt and others. If you could, tell me maybe some of the particulars of that relationship. MR. MAHEU: Well, the truth of the matter is that Paul Laxalt -- MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, you're right, Paul. MR. MAHEU: Paul Laxalt was already governor when we TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 28 came here. So Howard Hughes had nothing to do with Paul Laxalt being elected governor. He was already governor here. Hughes felt that any person in business had a responsibility to make political contributions. And we made political contributions to both sides, and it was not a big first, and it was not a big last. The amazing thing about it is that, although there was a lot of publicity, for instance, about the contributions to Nixon and Humphrey and all, total contributions were only a $100,000 for political campaign for presidential campaigns. You check the contributions today, one entity has already made $150,000 in contributions for the governorship. So you know, Hughes did not make inordinate contributions as has been suggested. We believed in timely contributions. And one of the reasons we did not believe in inordinate contributions is that if anyone will really make a study of it, if you are running for office, be it whatever office, and I make a contribution that is inordinate to your campaign, in reality I've placed you in a position where you can't give me a good hearing even if I'm entitled to it; because if we're seen together and you give me what I am entitled to, it's because of the contribution that I made to you. And I was very, very careful about constantly advising Hughes not inordinate. MR. ANDERSON: That creates a conflict of interest. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 29 MR. MAHEU: Exactly. MR. ANDERSON: Did he or did he not promise to further Paul Laxalt's political ambitions all the way to the presidency? MR. MAHEU: He wrote a memo to that effect. There were many, many memos that Hughes wrote to me wherein I did not carry on his instructions, and I'll tell you why. We'll go back to the cocoon for a moment. The longer he stayed in the cocoon, the more reality began to exist in his mind. Things in the outside world, to him, were not the way they really were but the way he would have liked them to be. MR. ANDERSON: He was out of touch. MR. MAHEU: He was out of touch. And mind you, he was surrounded with, in some areas, zombies who were so fearful of disagreeing with him that if he would ask them to do something that was inordinate, or they innately knew was wrong, they'd tried to do it hoping that in the world of wishful thinking it would work out. I mean, not being realistic even if it was something damaging to him. So I was able for a while to control him by saying, "Howard, I'm just flat not going to do it. And if you insist on getting me involved here, I'm going to walk." It worked for a while. Then he would say to me, "Okay, you've convinced me." TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 30 And I'd keep my fingers crossed. And then I ran into two situations where the same zombies that I'm talking about tried -- and one was absolutely devastating if it had ever surfaced -- and he called me in to correct it. I realized at that time that if I was going to protect this man, I had to add a dimension which I felt I could rationalize ethically, and that is that I would give him the impression that I was working on these things, whether I was or not, until I could get him thinking about something else. And I can give you example after example of where that technique worked not to Bob Maheu's benefit, but to his. And I plead guilty to it, but I'm not regretful about it. MR. ANDERSON: Well, like you say, as he receded from reality, his judgment was poor, and you had to make judgment calls. MR. MAHEU: Exactly. Sometimes I would get peeved, and I'd say, "Howard, one of these days, I'm going to climb up those nine flights, and I'm going to take you by the arm and walk you down until I get your feet on the ground and convince you that at night in Las Vegas it gets dark." MR. ANDERSON: What did he say? MR. MAHEU: Oh, he'd get so mad at me. "Go to hell." He'd slam the phone on me and then he'd call me back a few hours later and say, "Bob, let's talk about something else." TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 31 MR. ANDERSON: One thing we've not discussed here, and I don't think a lot of people are aware of, some are, I know, but you never saw him face to face. MR. MAHEU: That is correct. MR. ANDERSON: What was the reason for that? MR. MAHEU: Well, first of all, it was very awesome. I mean, you know, to get a man licensed seven times who does not make an appearance, and I have to convince the authorities that when they're talking to me, they're talking to him, in retrospect was one hell of a responsibility, and I might add a job well done. And not only did I do it here, but I did it in Washington, D.C., when we bought Air West. I mean, he never had to make an appearance. He was the sole owner of Hughes Tool that bought Air West. So we had, by that time, convinced the authorities that when they talked to me, they were talking to him. I'm the one, I made the statements to the world. When I made a phone call to his board and say "ratify this action," they never called Hughes to find out if it was true. Thirteen examples of that, where I called the board and I'd say "ratify it," and I'm talking about big numbers. I'm talking about a hundred million, a hundred fifty million dollar pieces here, you know. And they'd ratify. And I'd get it in writing, and that was the end of it. It was tough, but I finally found out that the reason TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 32 he did not want me to see him -- now this he told me himself -- is that he felt that we had been so successful in our alter ego program that he did not want me to see him in the manner in which he had allowed himself to deteriorate; that comes from his own words. Did not want me to see him in that manner. He had enough savvy to know that psychologically if I faced him, I would not be able to, with as much enthusiasm and perhaps with as much success, represent him in the future. MR. ANDERSON: He wanted not only you to remember him in the days of his dancing youth, but others as well. He wanted everyone to remember him that way. MR. MAHEU: Exactly. I remind you, at that point I'm his only spokesman. MR. ANDERSON: Now, what did you say to people in Washington and Carson City, or wherever you had to go, to convince them that Mr. Hughes simply could not appear? MR. MAHEU: I'd just tell them that it's sufficient to talk to me. You know, don't take this choice away from this man, he's not young anymore. MR. ANDERSON: Did you plead ill health, or that he was in ill health? MR. MAHEU: No, no. MR. ANDERSON: It was just that that was the decision that he had made, and you were the guy. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 33 MR. MAHEU: That's right. MR. ANDERSON: And they said okay? MR. MAHEU: That's right. MR. ANDERSON: That's an amazing thing. MR. MAHEU: I don't think it's ever been duplicated anywhere. MR. ANDERSON: No, I don't think so either. Tell me a little bit about the seduction of power. I mean, you're representing one of the richest men in the world at this time, one of the most powerful men in this country, one of the most famous men in this country. How did that feel? That must have felt pretty sexy. MR. MAHEU: Well, you know, it's an amazing thing. He had a tendency to take advantage of it, and it bothered me to the point that I'd put the reigns on him and simultaneously try to put the reigns on myself too, which I have to be very careful about this. I had made a semi-study of what happens to the psyche nouveau riche. I had made a sudden change into not only one of the best jobs in the country, but that paid well, unlimited expense account, jets, helicopters, suites, homes and power. An example, if you can pick up the telephone phone the night before the academy awards and say, "By the way, I'm going to need another table for eight people tomorrow night," and they don't even burp, it was a done deal, that's power. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 34 MR. ANDERSON: You did that? MR. MAHEU: That's power, you know. If you can pick up the phone, call the White House and say, "I have to see the president tomorrow, tomorrow." And my contact says, "Impossible, Bob, because he's at his ranch in Texas. He's sick, spending half of the time at his ranch, half of the time at the hospital, not seeing anybody." I said, "Okay, but you have to get me off the hook. Please make sure he knows I made this phone call, that I'm off the hook with my guy." And twenty minutes later your phone rings. "Will you have your pilots call this number so they can get their landing instructions for 10:15 tomorrow morning." That's power. MR. ANDERSON: Indeed, it is. MR. MAHEU: Now, you land at the ranch and a big Lincoln comes up followed by two cars loaded with secret servicemen. And at the foot of the gang plank is Mrs. Johnson, not the president. And she said, "The president wanted me to apologize that he's not here himself. He'll be back early afternoon but wants me to give you a tour of the ranch and make sure that you have lunch with us." And she says good-bye to the secret servicemen, and she and I get in the car alone, and she takes me on the tour. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 35 That's power, right? That's power. MR. ANDERSON: How did that feel? MR. MAHEU: It's hard not to become intoxicated with it. And yet as much as you try to say, well, it's not because of me, it's because of him, it's still you, the recipient. And it's very, very difficult. It's very, very difficult to not become intoxicated. And when it's suddenly taken away from you, it's a terrible shock. MR. ANDERSON: And that is just exactly what happened. MR. MAHEU: That's exactly what happened. MR. ANDERSON: Well, since you've brought that subject up, how did that happen? Things were going pretty well, but then... MR. MAHEU: There's a document filed in superior court here. The estate describes it better than I can because it's not Bob Maheu talking. But they had to get rid of Bob Maheu, this group. And they came up with this proxy that we challenged at the time. And the estate challenges the proxy in the document that they filed in court, not Bob Maheu, they filed. And they won, temporarily they won. MR. ANDERSON: They took you to court and drug your name through the mud. MR. MAHEU: I took them to the court too. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, but they drug your name through TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 36 the mud. MR. MAHEU: That's right. But I took them to court too. MR. ANDERSON: And you won. MR. MAHEU: And I won. And as a matter of fact, the head of the investigative agency that they hired admitted to 525 separate investigations on Bob Maheu, spending almost $3 million, as a consequences of which they had not one thing they could bring to local, county, state or federal authorities for any kind of prosecution. MR. ANDERSON: About as clean as it gets. MR. MAHEU: You know, I defy anyone else being able to make that statement. MR. ANDERSON: Um-hm. MR. MAHEU: So now, bottom line, I'm more powerful today than I ever was. MR. ANDERSON: Is that right? MR. MAHEU: Yes. MR. ANDERSON: Your business is that much better? MR. MAHEU: No. MR. ANDERSON: We're talking inner power. MR. MAHEU: I'm at peace. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. MR. MAHEU: I'm at peace with my family. I'm at peace with God. And I'm at peace with myself. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 37 MR. ANDERSON: You had some health problems. You had a heart attack. You had cancer. MR. MAHEU: I've had cancer twice. I've had a heart attack. Yeah. MR. ANDERSON: There was a real personal crisis for you when you were no longer with Hughes. MR. MAHEU: I went through depression which I hated to admit. I hate to admit today, but do I? I mean, I learned something. I learned that during that time I was not talking to myself. And here I was, I'd solve international problems for clients, and successfully, and at big expense to them. And here's Bob Maheu, the big international troubleshooter, who can't solve his own problem. It lasted for almost six months until something happened, and I realized that I was not using the same technique with me that I had used with clients. I started talking to myself, to me. MR. ANDERSON: An inner dialogue. MR. MAHEU: Exactly. MR. ANDERSON: Right. MR. MAHEU: And I'll tell you one thing, there's not a day goes by that I don't talk to myself, because it was so easy. Once I did it, it was so easy. I used to say it before, you can't solve the unknown, but you have a good shot at the solution if you identify the problem, as devastating as it might be. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 38 MR. ANDERSON: That's right. If you have a dialogue. MR. MAHEU: Yeah. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, you've got to keep that inner dialogue going. MR. MAHEU: It has to go. I don't know if you've studied Greek philosophers, but as many areas in which they disagreed, there was one common denominator: They all said with dialogue there's hope. MR. ANDERSON: Absolutely. We're just pretty much at the end of our list here, but Hughes loathed atomic testing here in Nevada. Tell us about that. MR. MAHEU: Well, it didn't start here. That's something that most people don't realize. We mentioned 1957 when I was in the Bahamas with him. I left him there and went to New York, much against his will. He wanted me to stay there, but I had a meeting that I had to attend. And he told me that we'd be through. If I left, we'd be through. But I left anyway. And the next morning checked in -- I'll never forget. I went to the Pierre Hotel to meet these friends and my wife. And when my wife answered the door, I said, "Honey, I just kicked the big client good-bye." I really believed it. But bear in mind, I had other clients, too, though. In any event, I was sorry about it, but I thought it was all over. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 39 MR. ANDERSON: Was Mrs. Maheu glad about that? MR. MAHEU: Not particularly, no. We've been married 56 years. I saw her when she was ten and I was eleven, the best friend I've ever had all these years and, no, she understands. She understands the world. She understood when I had to live two years undercover during World War II. She understood all that. I mean, she lives in the world of reality. MR. ANDERSON: About as good as they get. MR. MAHEU: About as good as they get, you know. In any event, we had a great night with these people. And the next morning at about 10:00 the phone rang. "I bet you wonder how I knew where you were." I said, "I wonder how you knew where I was, Howard." He said, "I know you." My wife was the only one who knew where I was going. And he says, "I told my guys to check in to see what the in hotel was at that particular time in New York" -- because I did know how to live. I did know how to live -- "and ask for Bob Maheu. And I knew damn well that's where you'd be. So here I am," he says. He says, "Are you finished finally what you went for?" I said, "I'm finished, Howard. I promised these people. This was the third time I would have cancelled on them, and I can't do things that way, but I'm finished, yes. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 40 Why?" He said, "Get to Washington right away." He said, "I have a funny feeling that the fallout statistics are running behind." I said, "Howard, impossible. Our government wouldn't be that crazy." MR. ANDERSON: Now, why was he concerned? MR. MAHEU: He was concerned about humanity. Above-ground testing in '57, see, most people don't realize that it goes back that far. He said, "I want you to go to Washington. I know you have the proper clearances. They'll tell you the truth." He said, "Find out where we stand in fallout statistics, and I want them brought current. And I don't care what the expense is, I'll buy whatever they need. I'll employ how many people they need. You have my word to give my commitment that we want these statistics brought up to date, and that we will reimburse the government for whatever it takes to do it." MR. ANDERSON: He was afraid of what? MR. MAHEU: Long life, forever life. He already realized what this meant. MR. ANDERSON: He knew that this was going to make people sick and die. MR. MAHEU: Yeah. So I went to Washington. And much to my amazement, not only did I find out that we were running TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 41 60 and 90 days behind, but nobody gave a damn. As a consequence of what we did, the statistics were brought up to date. Naturally, they did not have the audacity to let him pay, because that would have been a real mais coup pas posture, right? But they brought the statistics up to date. Word leaked. And there was a congressman from California. His name skips my name right now. But they started having joint hearings with the Atomic Energy Committee, and that's what precipitated that whole thing. So it was not with the arrival of Hughes in Las Vegas that he became concerned about atomic energy. And we've not heard the end of that one either. MR. ANDERSON: No, because by the time he got here, the tests were underground. MR. MAHEU: That's right. MR. ANDERSON: He still didn't like them there. MR. MAHEU: That's right. MR. ANDERSON: Well, I've got a lot of great interviews from people who were out there, the controller pushing the button, that guy; an iron worker at the test site who suffered acute exposure, and knew a lot of guys who died from cancer out there. So that's going to be a great piece to put in there. MR. MAHEU: Yeah. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. Like you said, people don't TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 42 realize he was concerned before he ever got here. MR. MAHEU: Long before, long before. MR. ANDERSON: He had concern for humanity? MR. MAHEU: That's right. That's right. MR. ANDERSON: I don't think people see him that way. MR. MAHEU: That's what I said earlier, see. And it fries my butt. I mean, somebody will write a book and say, you know, he had syphilis and so forth. Hughes never had syphilis. But who the hell is here to protect him now, you know? And here, you know, I had reasons for being peeved at him. And when I read the autopsy report, I cried. Really. MR. ANDERSON: No, I don't doubt it. That must have been awful. When I read it in the book, I almost cried. MR. MAHEU: Yeah, Yeah. MR. ANDERSON: When I read your book -- MR. MAHEU: Yeah, Yeah. MR. ANDERSON: -- I was like, oh, my God, how could the wealthiest man in the world end up like this? MR. MAHEU: It's incomprehensible. It's incomprehensible that people could do that. MR. ANDERSON: For anything. MR. MAHEU: For anything. MR. ANDERSON: Well, I guess if you could just sum up yourself and Hughes and what you meant to Las Vegas and to Nevada, I guess, finally. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 43 MR. MAHEU: Well, personally, I just happened to be there for the ride, because I recognized that had it not been for him, chances are I'd still be in Los Angeles. When we moved into our home in Los Angeles, I told my wife, "Take a good look because this is where we're going to die." And I had planned it that way. And a few years later, I'm in Las Vegas. And I intend to live here for the rest of my life. I had a relationship with Hughes that was unparalleled. I was brought up to the top of the mountain. I knew what power was. As I tell you, in all honesty, I've never been as happy as I am right now. I'm more powerful than I've ever been because I'm at peace -- at the sake of being repetitious, I'll say it again -- with God, with my family, and with myself. That makes you powerful. MR. ANDERSON: Amen. So essentially, who was this Howard Hughes guy? What really made him tick? What was the essence of Howard Hughes, in your opinion? MR. MAHEU: I think he, unfortunately, had a perpetual wanderlust. I think he was always looking, looking. He found what he wanted in Las Vegas and then he began to look for another place. He began to look for the Bahamas again. He wanted to go back to the Bahamas or perhaps Montreal. He was forever talking. He liked the idea of the TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 44 Bahamas. He wanted to be recognized in the world of communications, and most people don't realize that. They always think of him as wanting to make movies and the fly boy and wanting an airline. Don't get me wrong, he had an insatiable need to have an airline. I cannot remember which Apollo it was. I believe it was Apollo 14, I think, that the mission called for their walking to Surveyor II. Surveyor II was the second Hughes soft-landed vehicle. And when he found out about it, he wanted his name identified to the mission. Well, by that time we knew the astronauts. We had entertained them on our yacht. My son Peter had become very friendly with them. We'd fly the jet, have them over here as our guests. When the astronauts from Apollo 13 returned to earth, the first place they went to was here to see the house that Howard had built for me. We threw a party for them. I still have the pictures, phenomenal pictures. MR. ANDERSON: Where Si Redd lives now? MR. MAHEU: Yes. Right, right, right. Yeah. MR. ANDERSON: Great place. MR. MAHEU: Well, I tell you, that party was absolutely incredible. And in any event, Peter calls me back from the Cape, and he says, "Impossible. NASA will not allow a manufacturer's name identified with any mission." TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 45 So when I said that to Hughes, he said, "Have you ever heard of forced communication?" "Tell me what you mean." He says, "We'll force them into it." He says, "Come up with gimmicks, unlimited expense account, and before you get through, you'll know what forced communications means." Unlimited expense account, okay. We pulled in a yacht from Fort Lauderdale to the Cape, 167 footer. We had 15 little gold modules made of the Surveyor. We ordered 4,000 great big badges, white badges with "Hello HALO" on it. My wife and I flew to the Cape. We didn't live on the yacht. But we'd have Walter Cronkite for lunch, Hugh Downs. And on the way out, we'd give them little modules, gold modules. "What's this?" "That's a Surveyor. That's the vehicle that when they walk on the moon, they're going to be walking up to this." Now, there are 4,000 people walking around the Cape with "Hello HALO." Suddenly someone said, "What's HALO?" "Oh, HALO is Hughes Aircraft Lunar Observer." "Well, what is that?" "That's where they're going to go when they walk on the moon." MR. ANDERSON: That was pretty ingenious. MR. MAHEU: It worked. Now mind you, the night that TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 46 they were blasted off, that night we entertained on the yacht the vice president of the United States and his wife, the wives of the astronauts who had just taken off, and their parents on that yacht. Now, a few days later they're finally on the moon, and they're walking to Surveyor II. By that time we have created such a demand that every network including Reuters has now this bigger module in each of their studios, with the vice president of the Hughes Aircraft identifying what it is that the guys are doing when they're talking about it. MR. ANDERSON: Do you think Hughes thought of himself as a genius? MR. MAHEU: To the contrary. I think he had an inferiority complex. He thought himself as a perfectionist. But there were times, for instance, there were certain things about the underground testing that President Nixon wanted one of the top scientist to explain to Hughes, knowing his problems, or Kissinger explain to Hughes, and he would not take the call. Then when I'd push him -- push, push, push -- he'd saying, "Well, Bob, you know, they may expect me to know more than I really do." Well, you know, you get a few of these little inputs, you realize. And yet, he was a genius. MR. ANDERSON: But he thought people expected him to be more? TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 47 MR. MAHEU: To be more than what he -- MR. ANDERSON: To know everything. MR. MAHEU: Yeah, exactly. MR. ANDERSON: Nobody knows everything, not even Howard Hughes. MR. MAHEU: Exactly. You know, it's like old Senator Simpson said during the Bork hearings. You know, when he stopped Kennedy from badgering, he says, "Senator, I don't think there's a member of this panel who's ever passed the test of perfection." I thought it was a great line, you know. MR. ANDERSON: It sure is. Well, that's all that I have from our pre-interview. Now, if there's anything that I haven't asked that you'd like to talk about, that would be fine. MR. MAHEU: That'll be fine. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Then I won't burden you anymore. This has been terrific. I can't wait to start getting these on the air, about March before we start airing some of the first segments. MR. MAHEU: Well, let me know. Will you? MR. ANDERSON: Yes, sir, I will. Going as far back as we can and working our way up. MR. MAHEU: Okay. MR. ANDERSON: I could have done it topically, but I TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 48 still think chronologically is a good way to go for people. MR. MAHEU: It's a tough one. You know, years ago I was grounded in London with Lew Wasserman. You know who Lew is? MR. ANDERSON: I've heard the name. MR. MAHEU: Top man at Philip Morris Agency. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. MR. MAHEU: Anyway, I used to see him at a lot of political affairs. Very nice guy. And we were grounded in London. In those days it was not unusual to be grounded overnight, you know. And they had put us up at the same hotel. And Lew says, "I want to have dinner with you because I want you to tell me all about Howard Hughes." And I said, "Lew, how long do you want to stay in London?" You know, it's not a story that you can tell. When my trial started, I made up my mind that every chance I had -- the trial lasted three and a half months, 17,000 pages of transcript, 2,000 pages of documents, and then that was one phase of the trial. Then the amount phase was another three weeks. But anyway, I made up my mind at the beginning of the trial -- and being the plaintiff, I'm on the stand all the time -- they can call me anytime. MR. ANDERSON: Right. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 49 MR. MAHEU: And I had made up my mind that every chance I had I would refer to the unbelievable world of Hughes. After about a month and a half, the judge would refer to the unbelievable world of Hughes. MR. ANDERSON: Amazing. MR. MAHEU: Yeah. MR. ANDERSON: People hear something often enough, they pick it up. MR. MAHEU: By that time, they've picked up enough input too. MR. ANDERSON: Sure. That's great. MR. MAHEU: Okay. MR. ANDERSON: All right. Thank you so much. (End of tape.) * * * * * ATTEST: The foregoing transcript of the interview was transcribed fully and accurately from the audio tape provided by KNPR Radio. Eunice G. Jones, Transcriptionist TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 ??